Many Christians think heaven and hell are physical places God sends us to reward or punish us after we die. They think salvation means simply getting into heaven and avoiding hell. But the Orthodox Church does not believe in this model of salvation. Instead, we believe God is “everywhere present and filling all things.” Moreover, we believe Heaven and Hell are not physical places, but are actually different responses to, and experiences of, God’s unconditional love.
Estimated reading time: 5 minutes
The misconception that Heaven and Hell are physical places
In Matthew 25, we read of the Final Judgment. After Christ exchanges words with the righteous and the sinners, the righteous go “into eternal life” and the sinners “into everlasting punishment” (Matt. 25:46). Most people assume that this means Christ leads the righteous to Heaven and banishes the sinners to Hell. And they then merge this false assumption with their view of salvation: being saved must mean avoiding banishment to Hell. This unfortunate misconception originated in the Roman Catholic and Protestant tradition.
Augustine of Hippo’s teachings about absolute predestination to Hell and Paradise, his legalistic views about the Fall of man and sin, and his neoplatonic perception of Paradise greatly influenced Western Christianity after the Great Schism. In his writings, he introduced the idea that Hell is underneath the earth, where people go to be punished in literal hellfire. Paradise, however, lies beyond the reaches of space, and became the place where people go to enjoy eternal life. Such teachings did not exist in the East prior to the Schism, and his teachings were not accepted by the Fathers of the Church.
Heaven and Hell are our experience of eternity
The Orthodox Church teaches that Heaven and Hell are states and forms of relationship with our life-giving God. In other words, they are different experiences of His energy and presence. The creative and recreative energy of God multiplies through the diversity of created operations. Thus, because of differences in receptivity and faith, as well as variations in people’s conceptual powers, some will perceive God’s single energy as love, others as mercy, punishment, justice or hatred.
Put simply: there is the one creative energy of God, which the damned perceive as hate or punishment, because of their hardened soul. The righteous, on the other hand, see it as love, happiness, boldness and consolation. Thus, the righteous look on Him and are overwhelmed with unimaginable pleasure, whereas the damned do not see Him and live in inexpressible pain.
What icons can teach us about Heaven and Hell
The icon of the Second Coming of Christ shows us that Heaven and Hell are different experiences of eternity, not necessarily physical places. You may notice that a white light surrounds the people at Christ’s right hand, while red light surrounds those at His left – the damned. The pathway of red light is narrower, indicating it is further away from Christ than the white light. We see Christ clearly present before all of them, which emphasizes that He is everywhere present and filling all things.
The righteous see Christ in this white light, while the damned see the Light of Christ as red. Why? Because for the former it is the glory of God and for the latter it is the eternal fire and outer darkness. The damned have not gone off to some subterranean place of fire and brimstone, separated from their Lord and God for all eternity. Instead, as we see in the icon, they remain in His presence. It is their experience of His presence that makes eternity Hell to them.
God loves us all equally
The Holy Fathers of the Church also emphasize that God loves everyone equally. The damned and the saved, the glorified and the saints, the good and the bad. Paradise and Hell, as most people understand them, do not exist from God’s point of view, but from ours. God loves everyone, even those who hate Him. And He will send His grace to all, in the same way He “makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matt. 5:45). From God’s point of view, He saves us all. He wants the salvation of all human beings. But not everyone will accept God’s grace in the same way. Some will see God as Light and others as fire. It is how we experience that grace (by which we obtain salvation) that differentiates Paradise from Hell.
Both exist unto eternity. Both reside within the sight and presence of God. The only difference is the state of our soul. If we are hard of heart, selfish, sinful and unrepentant, God’s presence will be like a consuming fire. On the other hand, if we seek the cure for our sinfulness – repentance – and strive to achieve theosis, God’s presence will be Paradise.
The Church as a hospital
This leads us to the final truth about Heaven and Hell from the Church’s perspective: the Church’s job is not to help us figure out whether we will see God. She is a hospital designed to diagnose how we will see Him. The Eternal Divine Light and the Eternal Life are uncreated. They are the energy of God that is experienced by human beings as illuminating or burning energy, depending on their spiritual state. Thus, seeing God’s glory and His Light, will happen whether we want it or not. The difference is simply in the way in which we will experience Him.
In other words, the task of the Church is to prepare us to see God as light rather than fire. The Church presents Our Lord’s cure to our fallen condition: repentance and purification of heart. It is up to each of us whether we accept that cure or turn it away.
Conclusion
According to Fathers of the Church in both East and West, Hell and Paradise are not physical places. They are instead different experiences of God’s uncreated light, which all will see upon the Second Coming of Our Lord. When we see God’s glory with unselfish love, with a pure heart and contrite soul, we will experience Paradise. However, the same glory will be eternal fire and Hell for those who have chosen to remain in their selfishness.
34 Responses
What about where Jesus said that those which doesn’t do the will of the Father shall find their place in the lake of fire that burns with sulphur and brimstone?
What Jesus said here, is it symbolic or literal?
Joshua,
Christ is in our midst. The lake of fire is indeed synonymous with God’s holy and loving presence to those who rejected Him and are filled with hatred and darkness. Because they are filled with wickedness, they experience His presence as that lake of fire. God bless!
If evil doesn’t recieve it’s punishment, God is not just. But because He is a righteous God, He will make sure that evil will be punished accordingly. Notice, Hell and the lake of fire are two different places. In Revelation 22 records..Hell and death will bring out those there in, and they will stand before the Judge…those whose names are not written in the book of Life will be thrown to the lake of fire, AND THAT’S THE SECOND DEATH.
Ezra,
Christ is in our midst! Evil does indeed receive its punishment: eternal separation from God. That does not necessitate a physical separation. It is, rather, a spiritual one. It is natural for us as humans to attach a physical component to such things. The second death is that eternal separation, and the lake of fire is a symbolic representation of the ultimate consequence of rejecting God. So regardless of what we call it, hell or the lake of fire, the meaning is the same. Those who reject God will be eternally spiritually separated from Him. God bless!
This is an example of false church/pastors. Out there are many like that,but im surprised the evil reached this level even in orthodox to mislead people!!! But i must not be surprised when the catholics removed the purgatory from the church doctrine! People dont belive this page,this is dangerous lie,trap of the enemy! Heaven and hell are totally real places and there has no only fire,but punishments beyond human imagination! We are warned about this in bible.
Anonymous,
Christ is in our midst. What Church gave you that Bible, we wonder? God bless.
It is unfortunate for Greek Orthodox Christians that they are in a religion that has no understanding of what the Bible actually says and how one is to be truly saved by believing that Jesus Christ paid their sin debt on the cross at Calvary. The gospel is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. And yes, HEAVEN and HELL are real, PHYSICAL places. Jesus tells us so. I was raised as a Greek Orthodox Christian, but am now of no denomination, but a Bible believing follower of Jesus, saved by the shedding of his blood, what Jesus did, not by the church. May the Lord have mercy on your souls for teaching false, man-made doctrines.
Anna,
Christ is in our midst. It is unfortunate that you have apostatized from your faith, if you were indeed Orthodox before. Orthodox Christians (we are not all Greek, as any Orthodox Christian can tell you) do indeed fervently believe that Jesus Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and arose on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. This is part of our Creed, our statement of Faith, that we declare every time we gather together to worship the Lord. Even in our personal prayers we declare this. Please do not worry about us not believing this, as we do, vehemently!
However, we all know that salvation is not a one-and-done thing, and there are numerous verses in the Scriptures that attest to salvation being a lifelong process, a struggle against the forces of darkness until the day we depart this life.
Regarding your claim that Jesus explicitly stated that heaven and hell are physical places, we would be interested in your Scriptural citation for this. Heaven and hell cannot be real, physical places, because Jesus Himself tells us that His Kingdom is not of this world. We would be curious to understand how something not of this world, could be of this world. May God bless you.
If heaven and hell are not physical places. How can one explain the multiple description of physical items spoken of in the Holy Scriptures?
I.e.
– God’s throne (can’t sit on something that’s not physical)
– The “city” of New Jerusalem (Rev 21)
“In my Father’s house there are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you.” (John 14:2-6) *Spoken by Jesus Hinself
I’m interested to hear your thoughts on that last one. Jesus litterally says, “if it were NOT true, I would have told you. He didn’t say metaphysical mansions did he?
That’s only 3 of the many many verses indicating the physicality of Heaven. I apologize, but I don’t have time to even touch on Hell being a physical place. Sorry brother, but I don’t believe all your ducks are lined up correctly. I’m actually attending my first Othodox service (by invitation) this Sunday. Should be rather interesting. Especially, considering my faith and beliefs in Christ, and the personal revelations shown to me through The Holy Scriptures and living. Has opened my eyes to the fact that ALL “Organized Religions” are of man and have been created for reasons not of God The Father. Yet ultimately, all these “Religions” will have been for God The Father, as part of the “strong dilusion, that they may believe a lie” 2 Thes 2:11
Jim,
Christ is in our midst. Simply put, these are metaphorical descriptions. Surely you can see the usefulness of metaphor in communicating to non-believers about what it is they will experience in eternal life. There is indeed a physicality to eternal life, as our bodies will be a part of this life, resurrected and glorified, as Christ’s body was glorified upon His own resurrection. One must use discernment in learning when to apply metaphor and when to take a verse literally. The Fathers of the Church have provided these interpretations, and we follow them faithfully, as their disciples.
You will find that Orthodoxy is not a religion. It is a way of life. We are not a denomination; we pre-date denominations, having been the original body of Christ, in continuity for the past 2,000 years. God bless.
How do you juxtapose this view of heaven and hell simply being our EXPERIENCE of God as an all consuming fire (a view I have come to even before reading this stuff), and also the belief and knowledge that we are to live and rule in physical bodies, ruling on a new Earth in an embodied way? Being ambassadors of God to creation? Are the two mutually exclusive? After all, doesn’t Jesus tell us we are “gods”, and wouldn’t that imply something REAL to rule and do?
Thanks,
Cade
Dillon,
Christ is risen! We do not believe human beings will rule anything. Christ is our King! We will be given glorified bodies when Christ comes again, and our bodies will have a physical component. But all will be in the presence of God for all eternity, once He returns. Those who love God and follow His commandments and believe in Him, living a holy life, will experience His presence as bliss. While those who despised Him, mocked Him, blasphemed Him…they will experience it as suffering, the natural result of their life-long rejection of Him. The two need not be mutually exclusive if we can understand that the “new Earth” will be similar while all at once entirely foreign to what we currently experience. God bless!
I’m not sure about what I think of this—but I think it would be helpful if you buy this book/audiobook, https://www.amazon.com/A-Divine-Revelation-of-Hell/dp/B08BRFRVGM/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3GSGC215OHQHM&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.U2Vh3xDozE_YwBLvsRc5_RCLp2eFcPVb6shN8jPn9pEuemLIQ7c4PbwvFiB9YGpJQHeZva9U6OP6wWXsLUXmfu4asbKPuhFzjS4ToT76MTEYhDgU5Wtlfnq3u2gFHzGTYydyFvB4jtRimGJw1C891GUrnArxAj_ytduU6UEmwyftN_ED_gsgD__dMi21vHSALZW82R7ZsfFsZvNcuS98PrxvNK6y93DGd_2xr2paMgA.kx2Jg_h2kV6WPlt7_ITDHQrmRmZcmi6cOxoHwEiOhdk&dib_tag=se&keywords=divine+revelation+of+hell&qid=1725517124&s=books&sprefix=divine+revelation+of+hell%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C232&sr=1-1
Daniel,
Christ is in our midst. The personal experiences of one person do not doctrine make. Often visions come to us from demons who disguise themselves as God; we would do well to use caution and not immediately accept this woman’s visions as those from God Himself. Better to doubt and be forgiven, than to be seduced by the visions of a demon. Much about Baxter’s book is suspect, including the very authorship of the book. These false prophets are a dime a dozen – beware of them, as the Scripture tells you! God bless.
What if I believe in Christ but hate my life? Simply see no reason to live? Job was a man of God, though he cursed his birth, he longed for the grave. Clearly, he was not rejecting God but his miserable state of being?
Certainly, the rich man is portrait as being in a place far from God. You could obviously interpret it as being far away from Him with your heart — still, since I don’t reject God but my life, and the horrible body that is torturing me, including deep depression, why should I not commit suicide? The reason I live is not God’s will, it is the sheer lust of my useless father: I was born out-of-wedlock and grew up as step child. If I now kill myself because I *think* I would still accept God, just want out of this awful life I am living, why would that override years of already suffering? Why would that turn me into an unbeliever?
Couldn’t God have at least used a more dignifiying mechanism to bring us into this world than this rather beastly and disgusting drive that is lived out today by humans in a way that even animals don’t?
What I, believing in Christ, don’t understand is if suicide is a sin that will have me suffer eternally. Further, here in Germany there are no Orthodox churches anyway, and some Christians even claim you have to be of their denomination or Church to be saved, which would be preposterous, since I’d then have to move to Eastern Europe, which I never would want to nor could do.
I already regret having written this, but I’ll send it now regardless.
Anonymous,
Christ is in our midst. He is and ever shall be. One cannot truly believe in Christ and then simultaneously hate his life or see no reason to live. For Christ is hope in the midst of suffering, joy in the midst of sorrow. Christ is our salvation, and believing in Him should fill us with eternal joy, regardless of the circumstances we face in life. Depression is the result of succumbing to despondency; it is a hopeless sorrow that selfishly ignores the salvation Christ has given to each of us. It is the influence of the evil one taking root in our hearts like a thicket of thorns.
You live because God wills it. Yes, your parents participated in intercourse, which resulted in your creation. However, without God’s will, their act would not have consummated. Your existence is meaningful. You are significant in God’s sight, and you are His child. It is through His will alone that you continue to draw breath. And you should see each of those breaths as the gift that they are. A chance to know Christ, to truly know Him, and to attain communion with Him. Look to the Saints, to all those who lived lives filled with persecution, torture, imprisonment…and yet they were filled with joy! Why? Because Christ is risen, and the devil is vanquished! Christ is risen, and our path to eternal life has been opened once again!
If you truly believe in Christ, you would not succumb to this despondency you are feeling. Locate an Orthodox Divine Liturgy online tomorrow morning, friend. There are dozens on YouTube with services being streamed live. Or perhaps listen to an Orthodox YouTube channel, to chanting or singing or to priests’ sermons. Allow God’s peace, His love, to wash over you and instill in you the hope and joy and love you have lost. There is healing ahead for you, for all of us, in Christ Jesus Our Lord. There IS hope. And that hope is Christ.
Because suicide is imposing one’s own will over that of God in one of the most profound ways, it is a sin that will eternally separate you from Him. In ending your life when YOU want to do so, you are asserting your dominance over your Creator, when it should be the other way around. He decides these things, not us. And the suffering we endure is there for our growth, for our reliance upon Him, for our faith in Him, for our love toward Him. Everyone’s suffering is different, but ALL suffer, as that is the nature of this fallen, sinful world.
Should you need immediate assistance, please call the national suicide hotline at 988. Our prayers are with you. May God bless you and strengthen you in your suffering, as He strengthens us all.
I live in Germany and am attending my first Othodox service this Sunday (by invitation). As a very very non-denominational believer in Christ. I despise organized “religion(s)” and view all of them as “of man, for man” and not of Jesus nor God The Father. Religion IS a big part of the “strong dilusion, that they may believe a lie”.
Jim,
Christ is in our midst. We applaud you for taking the first step in learning more about Orthodoxy by actually experiencing it in person. As that is the only way to truly understand the Faith. God bless you.
My Catholic parents are telling me that Orthodox Christianity was first made for trying to control a group of people and isn’t real Christianity, it has just developed over the years and people forgot about its first intentions. I’m unsure about if I should concert to Orthodoxy because I am scared that it’s not a genuine religion now. I don’t know if my parents are telling the truth or don’t want me to convert.
Luella,
Christ is in our midst. Unfortunately, if what you posted is what your parents said to you, they were misleading you. We do not suspect this is malicious; it may come out of their own ignorance, and undoubtedly out of their love for you and fear for your soul. We would encourage you to visit an Orthodox church in person if you are interested in learning more, and speak to the priest. The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches were once one, but separated when the Roman Catholic church (under the archbishop of Rome) introduced innovations and teachings that the other four bishops of the Church at the time rejected. Thus, our communion was broken and remains so to this day. We hope this is helpful, and if you have other questions, please feel free to comment here.
I learnt a lot from this and the comment section, thanks for being patient with us readers!
I second this!
The gospels are very clear that Christ rose in the flesh. We are told that our bodies will be part of the resurrection. I don’t think it is proper to say, “According to Fathers of the Church in both East and West, Hell and Paradise are not physical places.” If we are to experience a physical resurrection, there is no reason to believe we will not be in a physical place. While it is true we cannot say for certain what our spiritual and physical experience will be, we cannot claim that our physical bodies will not exist within a physical space. This is the top search result when searching for this issue and it is dangerous to present such certainty about the exact state of our being after death. Especially without a single Patristic reference
“But is it not absurd to say that these members will exist after the resurrection from the dead, since the Saviour said, They neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but shall be as the angels in heaven? Mark 12:25 And the angels, say they, have neither flesh, nor do they eat, nor have sexual intercourse; therefore there shall be no resurrection of the flesh. By these and such like arguments, they attempt to distract men from the faith. And there are some who maintain that even Jesus Himself appeared only as spiritual, and not in flesh, but presented merely the appearance of flesh: these persons seek to rob the flesh of the promise. First, then, let us solve those things which seem to them to be insoluble; then we will introduce in an orderly manner the demonstration concerning the flesh, proving that it partakes of salvation.” – St. Justin Martyr
“If the body is not resurrected, then Man is not resurrected. Because Man is not just a soul. Man is body and soul. Therefore, if only the soul is resurrected, then Man is resurrected in half, and not in whole. Besides, we are not speaking literally when referring to the “resurrection of the soul”, because only the body is resurrected, since only the body is subject to deterioration.” -St. John Chrysostom
“And I know that He was possessed of a body not only in His being born and crucified, but I also know He was so after His resurrection, and believe that He is so now” – St. Ignatius
Andrew,
Christ is in our midst. While we understand your reticence, please understand this article is meant to be an introduction into this area of speculative theology. It is not intended to be an in-depth study of Patristic references, but merely to communicate the prevailing opinion of this facet of speculative theology. You will notice we never claimed that our bodies would not be part of the resurrection. We simply claimed that Heaven and Hell are not physical places in the way most people believe that they are. We recommend that you utilize the section that refers to the icon of the Second Coming as a proper illustration of what we mean about Heaven and Hell; they are the same place, not separate as most people are taught/believe.
However, we can see how this may confuse someone who is perhaps more knowledgeable on the subject. And we will take into account your perspective as we work on revising this article. God bless.
My understanding is that “Heaven” is not our eternal resting place, but a “spiritual presence with God” where we wait until the day of Jesus’ second coming.
If this is true and ALL will be ressurected with our newly glorified physical bodies on Earth that has been made in to a paradise like in which Adam and Eve were before the fall, and also our lives and minds would be like those of Adam and Eve before the fall, more akin to innocent and pure, adventurous, loving and playful children with no capability to sin nor be affected by sin in anyway, then where would the “damned” exist/What would happen to them?
If those who hate God and feel his presence as everlasting hellfire were to exist in the same Paradise as those that felt God’s light as everlasting joy, then would they not tarnish, defile and destroy said Paradise?
I want to say that I am a rather recent believer in Christ, but immensly interested in theology and building my love towards Christ. I am thus far very heavily leaning on becoming Orthodox, it seems to so perfectly answer every question I have had, I am jubilant in finding people even hundreds if not more than a thousand years ago to perfectly answer questions I have had and doubts about matters of faith. Orthodoxy also just feels FULL, there is a proper reason behind everything and it all comes together beautifully. (e. g. theosis) (I am European, but luckily our country has the Orthodox Church too, even if it is small in numbers)
Teemu,
Christ is in our midst! Glory to God that you have found His Church and are so attracted to the fullness of the Faith that she offers. What joyous news!
You asked an interesting question. If you recall the story of the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham explains that there is a chasm between those who experience the bliss of Paradise and those who experience the fire. So though we may inhabit the same physical “space”, for lack of a better conceptual understanding, their presence will not sully or destroy the Paradise others experience in God’s light. Ultimately there is too much we do not know, since this is within the realm of speculative theology. We must instead learn from the revelation that the Lord has deigned to give to us and prepare ourselves for an eternity in Paradise. Rather than fussing over those speculative details we cannot possibly know, we should focus instead on repentance and attaining holiness. In due time, we will learn what awaits in its fullness.
This kind of answer is often unsatisfactory for most people, because we just want to know. But there is beauty in not knowing. In trusting. In having faith. And it is this beauty, we suspect, that led you to Christ in the first place. God bless you, and have a blessed Christmas!
Thank you for this reply.
Thank you for the encouraging words and for the aknowledgment that these kinds of answers can be unsatisfactory.
I think as my faith and my understanding grows I can see how obvious it is that God would not let a perfect eternal Paradise be sullied by those who hate Him.
Since no sin exists in Paradise nor any kind of harm, those in agony from God’s love and vision of perfection cannot harm said Paradise or those that dwell in said Paradise.
I have also pondered why Orthodox do not seem to put it this way, but to me the whole process of Theosis as in becoming more like Adam and Eve before the fall, becoming more like what God made us be, seems a lot like a process to finding the inner child in you. For a small child knows no pride, no sexual lust, no malice, and the life in Paradise reminds me of the playful adventures I used to have as a child.
Am I completely wrong in making this connection between becoming more like little Children (like even Jesus said) and working towards Theosis, or has this connection been made before by any Church Fathers?
Thank you in advance!
Teemu,
Christ is born! Theosis is becoming like God, attaining holiness, achieving communion with Him. Indeed, we must become like little children – in the sense of forsaking the passions and cultivating virtues and in preserving innocence and chastity. Using the phrase “finding your inner child” though, tends to have connotations of playfulness and fun and doing what seems exciting rather than actively making a distinction between what is right and what is wrong. Basically, there is a part of that statement that is true, but it simplifies theosis a bit too much. Theosis is a battle, a constant struggle against our passions and against temptation. A child is free of those things because they are not developed enough to understand them. We, however, are developed enough, and must struggle daily. We hope this helps you understand it a bit better. We have another article on theosis specifically on the blog; we recommend giving that a read as well! God bless you!
Can you give me examples of some early church fathers who held to this position? Orthodox christians often claim this but i have a hard time finding which fathers actually teach this. The only clear example seems to be Isaac the syrian, apart from him this is not really articulated clearly in the first 1000 years of church history. Am i missing something? Which early fathers held to this view? To me this seems like a modern orthodox invention, which demands that i completly ignore the majority of fathers (both eastern and western) who held t a literal, fire-and-brimstone torture hell. I hope the orthodox position is correct since it seems more moraly acceptable, but i cannot find evidence of this in the early fathers except for a very small minority.
Thank you! God bless!
Dimitris,
Blessed Lent to you! Many people tend to misunderstand the Fathers because they end up proof-texting, only reading the parts of that Father’s works that pertain to their particular argument instead of understanding their writing style, exegesis, etc. When any Church Father speaks of Gehenna/Hades/Paradise using physical descriptions, these are merely the best ways to communicate these things to the people of their time. The place is indicative of the state, in other words. Even in Orthodox literature today, we still see Hell described as a place, but that does not encapsulate the totality of the Orthodox theological position. This physical description does not mean Hell can be physically located, but rather that it is a physical, localized experience, which is best compared to the eternal fire, the worm that never dies, the outer darkness, etc.
Hell is clearly more than just a place. It is very much a spiritual reality, a state of being, first and foremost: the same divine fire giving joy to the righteous and torment to the wicked. St Clement of Alexandria uses the image of an ugly man looking into a mirror; the mirror is not actively making him ugly, nor is his reflection a separate thing from himself, but he merely experiences the reality of his disposition and this hurts him. Likewise the man cast into Gehenna is not actively tormented by God nor cast into something external to himself but rather his wicked disposition makes the glory of God a painful thing.
What truly matters isn’t that it’s a place that can be localized and perhaps found with enough digging, but that this description as a place best describes it. If it really is a place scientifically speaking, then it is. If not, it doesn’t detract from the analogy expressed by the place. Some earlier Fathers like Clement of Alexandria thought of things like heaven and hell as physical, mundane places in the world, and some later Fathers like Ephraim the Syrian thought of them in a more poetic or spiritual way. These views do not contradict one another, but complement to create a comprehensive understanding of the experience to come.
We hope this aids in your understanding. God bless!
Thank you for answer!
I see what you are saying but to me this argument i not nearly strong enough to convince me that the orthodox position has any merit to it. You freely admit that most church fathers seem to teach a literal version of hell that is no where close to the “hell as Gods love experienced differently”, but then you ask me to ignore all of that because it is simply symbolic langauge and it not what they actually mean. I came to orthodoxy because i was told that the orthodox read scripture in accordance with the fathers, but then i have to completly disregard the fathers and view all their langauge as symbolic, or as an adaptation to the culture of their time. I understand that even someone who holds yo your view of hell might sometime use literal langauge aswell, to make a point. But it concerns me when there seems to be absolotely no proof at all in the early fathers of this view, i simply have to assume that they all secretly belived this even when given no indication that they actually did. And that orthodox will then attack catholics for holding to a more literal version of hell, as if this is a medival invention and not something taken directly from the fathers
And the patristic quotes you provide are to me not nearly strong enough to support your argument, Clement of alexandrias section about the ugly man looking in the mirror does not nessesarily mean that he held to your view of hell, you are reading way to much into it and adding your own pre-supposed intepretation.
I also am aware that i can sometimes come of as hostile or angry when debating theology, please exucse that as it is not my intent. I am simpl trying to find the truth, and i appreciate you engaging with me!
Dimitris,
You are welcome. Ultimately, if you wish to be “convinced” into this, then we cannot help you. We would only caution you not to allow your own intellect to stand in your way, as we humans tend to set a rather unreasonable threshold to reach before we relinquish our pride. We are not suggesting you ignore anything from the Fathers, and the Orthodox position on this topic does not inherently contradict the Fathers. Hell being a literal place and simultaneously being a spiritual experience are not mutually exclusive concepts. It is also important to remember that the Orthodox teaching on this is not considered dogma. It is speculative theology, because in the end, we simply do not know. The Church Fathers also simply did not know. They, and we, are employing human language in the best ways possible to understand the concepts the Lord has revealed to us. In their time, that meant playing on the physical aspects, using very real, tangible descriptions to communicate what this experience would be like. That does not mean they are wrong, nor does it mean the official Church position is wrong. It is not, unfortunately, so black and white!
“But then I have to completely disregard the fathers and view all their language as symbolic, or as an adaptation to the culture of their time”. Yes! We must do this even with Scripture. There are literal meanings, symbolic meanings, sometimes a combination of both within the same small passage. The depth of meaning in the words and teachings the Lord has revealed to us is simply beautiful, and it will take us all several lifetimes before we begin to even grasp the beginnings of His wisdom. We cannot simply take things word for word and assume there is no more meaning to it than that!
God bless.
I’m orthodox and I’ve been orthodox for 19 years. I was baptized and chrismated in the annunciation Greek Orthodox Church of Modesto, California. I was watching father Peter heroes on YouTube has many beautiful explanations for our beliefs and why and about the church and how special our faith is….. I love my faith, and I live it as I should. But when father Peter hears said there is no heaven to no hell it’s just a state of mind I wept.. I am so discouraged. I’m even having a crisis of my faith. Why in 19 years as an orthodox Christian in my church, going to Bible study knowing cradle orthodox for years not once in any Bible study adult religious education, many meetings with my spiritual father. I’ve never heard anything like this. There is no heaven there is no hell.?? I trust father John Margolius he is my priest retired now, but I know he loves God the way his life is and his family and his friends and everything around him is good and honorable and they love God. That’s why I believe him, but I was never told by my spiritual father that there’s no heaven and there’s no hell.. maybe not in this realm in the head in the heavenly realms why would Jesus speak of such things I go my father’s building a house for you a place for you I know it says mansions, but I don’t care if I have a little tiki head like in some of the monasteries, I can’t understand I want to see God’s face. I want to hug my father,I wanna see my favorite saints, Maximo, Gerasimos, Nacario, Saint Patrick, Saint Catherine, Saint Anna, and our most holy theotokos! I want to see my father and my grandmother and my godmother and older people from the church who died before me. With no disrespect, but what we’re just gonna be in a state of mind rolling around the Earth all over it’s more of a state of mind. Well, I mind. I live my faith because that’s what God calls us to do he called. I answered I live the 10 Commandments I go to holy confession and communion. I worship God but I’m devastated to know that there’s not a place where we will have our bodies again or whatever bodies he gives us. I don’t really care, but I thought we were going to a place up in the heavens somewhere he sits on a throne up in heaven, where of all these words come from that are in the Bible ??? What if you’re wrong? I pray my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will direct me the right way. I’ve given 19 years of my life to living the orthodox faith because that’s what it is. It’s a living faith. I love my orthodox faith.. and in the end, it’s what God’s will is not my own and not men who think they figured it all out. Maybe you have maybe you haven’t God decides all this as God will it that’s what I believe. And what is it we go under the epitaphios. ? We go underneath it and it’s supposed to mean we go down into hell like Jesus did trampledon death and we come back up.” ??! or even just the plain saying “Jesus trampled on death. In Hades.” Everything can’t be a metaphor that’s written in the Bible.. there’s also something and I can’t quote it but it goes like this “ truly truly I say to you, I go up to my father‘s house and we have built houses for you. I would not tell you that if it was not true.” Forgive me that’s not verbatim but you get my point.
In Christ, love Katerina
Katerina,
Christ is in our midst! He is and ever shall be! First, we must urge you to calm your troubled spirit, as you have caused yourself worry over nothing, child.
Just because heaven and hell are not physical places does not mean that you will never see the Lord or be in the presence of His Saints. It sounds as though you do not truly understand the Orthodox teaching. We will all be in the presence of the Lord when we depart from this life. Because He is everywhere present and fills all things. We will be in His presence then, just as we are in His presence now! Whether we experience that as “heaven” or as “hell” will depend on how we have lived our lives and whether we have repented of our sins.
At the second coming of our Lord, our bodies will be returned to us, as the Church teaches. We will live in the presence of the Lord for all eternity, experiencing His loving presence as paradise. Orthodox iconography illustrates this beautifully. Take a very close look at the icon at the top of this post. You will see that the Lord is at the center of it all, but that those in “heaven” and in “hell” are all still in His presence, in the same “place”. In His presence are also the Theotokos, the Apostles, and all the Saints!
Do not despair, but rejoice! For this teaching does not present a crisis, but instead a clarification. Now you better understand what it is that your Faith believes about what takes place upon death in this life. It is also important to remember that these teachings are considered “speculative theology” and are not dogmas. We do not truly know what “exactly” will happen; but we know what we know from the Scriptures and from the Tradition of the Church. We hope this has brought you some peace and clarity. God bless you.